You just don't get it and never will. The world has a hell of a lot more respect for Kerry than they EVER will Bush 2.0.

So what's it like to live in disneyland anyways? (joking)

, and the world's opinion matters...why?

You guys are aware that we are not the only country on the planet right? (Keyword: RIGHT)...Or maybe not. You're Neo-cons....The whole world revolves around you....My mistake!

The only reason i even brought it up was that Baker Started up on the whole "the world respects Bush 2.0 more than they would Kerry" thing.

If you think the people that hate us now will hate us LESS under Kerry, then you live in Disneyland. They hated us under Clinton, another "draft dodger", and they will hate us under Kerry. Only this time he has given them prodigious amounts of "crimes" to accuse him of. They aren't going to respect either. Kerry has a lot more propaganda value, though.

Remember to get me some mouse ears k Baker? Thanks!

Bubba was openly opposed to serving in Vietnam. Bush hid under daddies coat tails. Now he's returning the favor by cleaning up daddies mess. The world has always resented the US because of what we have, and what they don't have. Now they just hate us because of Bush 2.0. Big difference!

They hate us because of what we have and don't have, and they use whatever excuse is most useful. Look at the conspiracy mill that is the foreign press. Look at how North Korea deals with US history. We will be handing them a lot of grist for the mill with Kerry.

which crimes are we talking about?   the definitely horrific ones that other some of the other vets against the war told the larger group theyd committed while in vietnam and were subsequently described to the committee by kerry using the pronoun 'we' in its collective sense because he was representing the group?   or the clear violations of the geneva accord that were matter of course and policy--enforcing freefire zones,  carpet bombing, use of specific weapons (like 50cal machine guns) in areas where there were civilian noncombatants?  he was merely the messenger in the first instance.  the second group of violations were very frequently witnessed by everyone who watched network evening news tv broadcasts. 

the point of his testimony in that regard (and i cant believe it needs explaining one more time) was to inform the american public that its government was out of control and out of line in ordering their sons, fathers, brothers, etc. to routinely violate the geneva accords.

Kingbee: I think you are overestimating the honesty of propagandists. Just as Dean, Moore, Clark and the rest are falesly accusing Bush of smearing Kerry's war record, people who want to tear away at the US won't differentiate and point out the subtle grammar of Kerry's testimony. How hard will it be to accuse Kerry of atrocity when yo ucan cut/paste his own words?

We will, perhaps, overlook that as historical detail, but I don't think the rest of the world will when they are looking for propaganda. Regardless, comparing the "morality" of what Bush did during Vietnam and what Kerry did is dubiously subjective.

One avoided the "horrors" Kerry describes, the other willingly took part and only later had moral qualms while banking a poltiical career on it. I'm not seeing how the party that embraced draft dodgers for 30 years has much ground to stand on in this kind of debate.

The world has a hell of a lot more respect for Kerry than they EVER will Bush 2.0.

I spent three years living in Germany and had made about a dozen friends there. I still talk to one couple (who introduced me to my wife) and one ex-girl friend.

I talk to George and wife Silvia about once a month. My wife and me have in the past vacationed together with them; I would have to say that they are both moderates. They have said that in Germany Bush is not well liked, but Kerry is a man that is considered not very strong and will be easily dooped or swayed. They hold far more respect for Bush then they do Kerry. When I asked then if they think Germany or France will support Kerry in Iraq they stated for Germany no. In their opinion Germany is supporting America in Afghanistan and feels that even if Kerry wins will not go into Iraq. Germany has the largest number of troops there then any other allied country.

When I pressed them on France, the general feeling in Germany is that France will do nothing. The French had taken a gamble trying to do a political rally around themselves to reform some of the power that has faded, and lost. They feel that politically France gained little and are starting to slip even more with Rwanda, and the Iran showdown that they tried to organize earlier this year. The French has taken this very hard and considers all of it the US's fault. George believes that short of a major attack on the French embassy in Iraq, the French will not go into Iraq no matter who is President, because it is a pride thing.

My ex-girlfriend Katja is a one-time member of the German Green Party. She feels that Bush needs to go too but can not figure out why the Democrats would pick someone like Kerry. When I seen Bakers latest post it reminded me of our last conversation where she had even mentioned Kerry's war testimony. In her opinion Kerry is quote "A slim ball politician of the worse kind". She believed that for her as a German she wants Kerry, but if Kerry were running against Bush in Germany she would vote for Bush.

This is only two of the examples that I have of Europeans. Granted, this is limited to Germany. But it sounded that people in Europe generally want Kerry to win, but they don't Respect him at all.

Thats my two cents.

I guess I am trying to say that if the Democratic party is so concerned with the "perception" of the US, I'm not sure lauding heroism in Vietnam and condemning those who didn't want to go is logical.

Moore is openly attacking Bush for NOT getting involved in the kind of conflict Kerry condemned, continues to condemn, and continues to bank his "heroism" on. It makes no sense, especially after 30 years of excusing everyone else who dodged service in the war with the war's injustice.

You guys are aware that we are not the only country on the planet right?

When it comes to deciding who I'm going to vote for then yes, I don't really care about world opinion. They don't pay taxes.

(Keyword: RIGHT)...Or maybe not. You're Neo-cons....The whole world revolves around you....My mistake!

Uh-huh. Yea, I'm a real neo-con.

Well drag, from what ive seen in your posts...If not...My bad!

and the world's opinion matters...why?

Because America cannot survive as a single entity, when will Americans learn that there is a world beyond their shores and it is far more important? Of course, I am referring to Britain and more specifically England. England is the world's greatest nation, that is why America so slavishly imitates us in a bid to appear a "superpower".

bakerstreet?  youre not seriously suggesting that candidate k will be less effective than candidate b because candidate k's domestic opponents succesfully ressurected a 30+ scam originally engineered by a president whom, prior to being  forced out of office in disgrace for attempting to conceal his complicity in similar scams, had ordered us forces (in that president's capacity as  their commander in chief) to violate the geneva accord--as reported truthfully by candidate k? 

i doubt it can be intelligbly translated into arabic or korean (even if they use those gitmo creative translators).  i cant follow it in english.

 

this has become more byzantine than the notorious double-secret-probation councils of ancient constantinople