Still think Saddam had WMD's?

The US government now says otherwise!

Published on October 6, 2004 By thatoneguyinslc In Politics

I was reading my complimentary copy of USA Today at the hotel this morning and found this little nugget of info. Now bush 2.0's own people are contradicting him.

Link

thanks for reading,
Thatoneguyinslc

Comments (Page 4)

drmiler

on Oct 19, 2004

Still think Saddam had WMD's?

By: thatoneguyinslc
Posted: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 on The dark side of the road
Message Board: Politics
I was reading my complimentary copy of USA Today at the hotel this morning and found this little nugget of info. Now bush 2.0's own people are contradicting him.

Link

thanks for reading,
Thatoneguyinslc

Actually I do and always have.

UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after
World Tribune
Friday, June 11, 2004

The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.

"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

Director of Central Intelligence, National Intelligence Estimate, Iraq's Continuing Programs for Weapons of Mass Destruction, October 2002

The estimate concluded that Iraq continued its weapons of mass destruction programs despite U.N. resolutions and sanctions and that it was in possession of chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges exceeding U.N. imposed limits. In addition, it was judged that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program and, if left unchecked, would probably have a nuclear weapon before the end of the decade - assuming it had to produce the fissile material indigenously. If Iraq could acquire sufficient fissile material from abroad it could construct a nuclear weapon within several months to a year, the estimate reported.

Iraq said to have mobile weapons labs
(Reuters) - February 1 2003 15:14

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany's secret service has information that Iraq is developing weapons in mobile laboratories disguised as ordinary goods vehicles, a magazine has said.

Focus weekly said on Saturday opposition MPs were urging the government to publish the information or at least make it available to fellow members on the United Nations Security Council who may be required to vote soon on possible military action against Iraq.

Focus said Germany's BND intelligence service informed members of the parliamentary commission on foreign affairs about the mobile laboratories in November. Some parts for the laboratories came from suppliers in Germany, the BND said.

Finally, from Senator Kerry himself (October 9, 2002)

It is clear that in the 4 years since the UNSCOM inspectors were forced out, Saddam Hussein has continued his quest for weapons of mass destruction. According to intelligence, Iraq has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of the 150 kilometer restriction imposed by the United Nations in the ceasefire resolution. Although Iraq's chemical weapons capability was reduced during the UNSCOM inspections, Iraq has maintained its chemical weapons effort over the last 4 years. Evidence suggests that it has begun renewed production of chemical warfare agents, probably including mustard gas, sarin, cyclosarin, and VX.

According to the CIA's report, all U.S. intelligence experts agree that Iraq is seeking nuclear weapons. There is little question that Saddam Hussein wants to develop nuclear weapons. The more difficult question to answer is when Iraq could actually achieve this goal. That depends on is its ability to acquire weapons-grade fissile material. If Iraq could acquire this material from abroad, the CIA estimates that it could have a nuclear weapon within 1 year.

This is quoted from T B who found the answer I was seeking.

thatoneguyinslc

on Oct 20, 2004

You can find facts to justify anything you want to believe. The truth is that there were NO WMD's. You need to accept that and move on.

drmiler

on Oct 20, 2004

Reply #47 By: thatoneguyinslc - 10/20/2004 8:53:25 AM
You can find facts to justify anything you want to believe. The truth is that there were NO WMD's. You need to accept that and move on.

So basically your saying the UN inspectors lied, right?

thatoneguyinslc

on Oct 20, 2004

Nope, not at all Dr.

I think they really didnt have a clue either way. I think Saddam was hiding all kinds of stuff, but WMD's weren't on the list. I think he was more concerned with them not finding out where the oil money was really going.

drmiler

on Oct 20, 2004

Reply #49 By: thatoneguyinslc - 10/20/2004 6:49:42 PM
Nope, not at all Dr.

I think they really didnt have a clue either way. I think Saddam was hiding all kinds of stuff, but WMD's weren't on the list. I think he was more concerned with them not finding out where the oil money was really going.

See I really don't get this at all. Everyone else is saying the UN inspectors this and the UN inspectors that as long as it's against Bush. But when I point out something that supports Bush, then the UN inspectors don't have a clue. I'm beginning to believe that some people around here don't have a clue.

thatoneguyinslc

on Oct 20, 2004

I think that bush 2.0 really didn't care if Saddam had the WMD's or not. He was bound and determined to go into Iraq either way. Using the threat of supposed WMD's gave him the "justification" to do it.

Solitair

on Oct 21, 2004

Drmiler, Actually if you read the article you posted it doesn't support it's title. The article states that components were found elsewhere. This does not say that WMD existed (which the title does). There is no conflict between this statement and the Iraq survey group report. Therefore this article does not support the line that Saddam had WMD.

It does show that there was a major risk of WMD technology being spread by Saddam though. Sadly any political points Bush could score with this are totally wiped out by the fact that he allowed entire nuclear facilities to be stripped bare and looted when in control in Iraq. Where are those materials now? Have any terrorist got their hands on nuclear material and components because of this? This issue is a far greater threat than WMD components.

Paul.

drmiler

on Oct 21, 2004

Reply #52 By: Solitair - 10/21/2004 3:02:56 AM
Drmiler, Actually if you read the article you posted it doesn't support it's title. The article states that components were found elsewhere. This does not say that WMD existed (which the title does). There is no conflict between this statement and the Iraq survey group report. Therefore this article does not support the line that Saddam had WMD.

You need to reread it here's the beginning of it

UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after
World Tribune
Friday, June 11, 2004

The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003

Now you want to tell me again how the article doesn't say what? I really don't care if it goes along with the ISG report or not. This report is from the UN inspectors that everybody screams about.

Solitair

on Oct 21, 2004

Which part of the word components did you miss?

Components are NOT WMD.

Paul.

drmiler

on Oct 21, 2004

Reply #54 By: Solitair - 10/21/2004 3:48:43 PM
Which part of the word components did you miss?

Components are NOT WMD.

Paul.

And *which* part of medium range ballistic missles did *you* not understand?
Are you going to sit there and tell me that *they* aren't WMD's?

T B

on Oct 21, 2004

Components are NOT WMD

com·po·nent n.

1. A constituent element, as of a system.
2. A part of a mechanical or electrical complex.
3. Mathematics. One of a set of two or more vectors having a sum equal to a given vector.
4. Any of the minimum number of substances required to specify completely the composition of all phases of a chemical system.

So let me get this logical argument straight. The subsytems and constituent parts of weapons are not the weapons. Therefore, even though the component parts were there, there were no weapons? So, even though you have the parts you can't put them together to make the weapons? Or dis-assemble the weapon into their component parts and move them?

Perfectly clear to me.

Solitair

on Oct 22, 2004

drmiler,
I believe you are misreading the report you mention. The article you link is already pushing the extreme by saying WMD were found. In fact if you look at the original UN report only scrap engine parts and scrap WMD components were found. And where were they found? In scrap metal yards in Jordan and Syria where they had been stripped and the metal sold for profit. The original UN report even admits that the WMD components had other non WMD uses and that no trace WMD chemicals were found to verify that these components were WMD. Only the missile engine parts could be verified.

So NO WMD were found. Only components from missile engines and scrap parts that may possibly have been used in chemical labs.

There is a serious point that missile engines are not a technology that anyone would want to see spread to syria. The fact that they were already stripped and being sold for metal implies that no one was experting these as weapons.

paul.

Solitair

on Oct 22, 2004

T.B.,
as pointed out above, when you read the original UN report you will see that the 'components' drmilers linked article refer to were missile engine parts and suspected chemicla lab components. We are NOT talking about a complete set of components that could be assembled into the weapon here. We are not talking about stored components but scrap metal parts transferred by individual Iraqis to get cash for metal. So your assumption that the subsystems and constituent parts were present is incorrect. Only stripped and scrapped missile engine parts were verified. Some scrap metal components that came from chemical labs were also found. They were not verified as having been used for WMD.

Paul.

drmiler

on Oct 22, 2004

Reply #57 By: Solitair - 10/22/2004 2:45:25 AM
drmiler,
I believe you are misreading the report you mention. The article you link is already pushing the extreme by saying WMD were found. In fact if you look at the original UN report only scrap engine parts and scrap WMD components were found. And where were they found? In scrap metal yards in Jordan and Syria where they had been stripped and the metal sold for profit. The original UN report even admits that the WMD components had other non WMD uses and that no trace WMD chemicals were found to verify that these components were WMD. Only the missile engine parts could be verified.

So NO WMD were found. Only components from missile engines and scrap parts that may possibly have been used in chemical labs.

There is a serious point that missile engines are not a technology that anyone would want to see spread to syria. The fact that they were already stripped and being sold for metal implies that no one was experting these as weapons.

paul.

You and i have had this disussion before. I wasn't able to convince you then of WMD's and it don't look like it's going to happen this time either. So I'll tell you what. You believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. There is no sense in further discussion. Later!

T B

on Oct 22, 2004

when you read the original UN report you will see that the 'components' drmilers linked article refer to were missile engine parts and suspected chemicla lab components. We are NOT talking about a complete set of components that could be assembled into the weapon here

I'm well aware of what the report says. I was the one that originally posted the article on another blog. Again, let me get this logical argumeny straight. They had the engines, they had rocket bodies, they had guidance and control systems, they had the production and test equipment (sounding pretty complete), they have seized over 12,000 pages of procurement documents, they have photgraphic evidence that sites subject to UNMOVIC monitoring were cleaned up and disassembled. Therefore, they couldn't have had WMD? Is that your conclusion? Or would you only believe it when you saw a Bill of Materials, shipping records and the Quality Control History Record?

If they had the constituent parts, they were moving them out, is it not possible that some of the parts (you assert are) missing are elswhere? Does it take that large a conceptual leap? Is it logical they would attempt to get only SOME of the components?

And where were they found? In scrap metal yards in Jordan and Syria

I suggest YOU read it again, this time WITHOUT the partisan blinders. They (engines) were found in a scrap yard in Rotterdam, Netherlands.

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